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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 November 2024

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In the part about years 1947-1948 and the partition plan, this article fails to mention that the partition plan was agreed by the Israeli side, and declined by the arab side. It also states that a civil war had started, without mentioning that 6 Arab countries joined the attack on 1948 (started as a civil war, and became a war between countries). 38.87.93.153 (talk) 07:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Remsense ‥ 论 07:35, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Currently it says in part In 1947, the UN adopted a partition plan for a two-state solution in the remaining territory of the mandate. The plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership but rejected by the Arab leaders, and Britain refused to implement the plan. Am I missing something? I believe this is accurate and verifiable, but it's not currently supported by any inline sources, and should be. Andrewa (talk) 06:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"State of Palestine'" listed at Redirects for discussion

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The redirect State of Palestine' has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 7 § State of Palestine' until a consensus is reached. Ca talk to me! 15:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Palestinian Olympians proudly represent their nation on the international stage"

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Non-informative statement, with a supportive tone, that fails to meet NPOV criteria. Pacifico (talk) 17:01, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

agreed, they are hardly going to do it in shame. Slatersteven (talk) 17:14, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 December 2024

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Under the ethnic groups category, "Palestinian Arabs" is listed as the only ethnic group. However, there are many ethnic groups, including Armenians and Syriac Palestinians. I think that having this category is not useful. However, if it is going to be on the page, it should include more of the ethnicities in Palestine. SirCapybara (talk) 16:45, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Ultraodan (talk) 13:57, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To improve clarity, revise sentence re. Partition Plan

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Current: ". . . [the UN] proposed a _partition plan_, for two independent Arab and Jewish states and an independent entity for Jerusalem, but. . . ."

Suggested revision: ". . . in 1947 [the UN] proposed that Palestine be partitioned (divided) into two independent states, one Arab and the other Jewish. The _partition plan_ specified that Jerusalem become an independent international city. But. . . ."

Note: _partition plan_ is an existing link, which I propose remain untouched. Avi (talk) 11:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Diacritics

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@Freedoxm—as I insuated, the problem with the tashkil here is that they are totally unnecessary. Really, that is all I need, since I would imagine the responsibility is really on you to have an actual reason to add them. They introduce an awful lot of visual noise, and do not aid in their purpose for being (e.g. a plain reference for what we assume is an audience that speaks English but not necessarily another language. In fact, their use might be harder, as these are not the usual forms; instead, they have been loaded with symbols that are used while teaching children and students how to read. If that is part of your motivation here I want to strongly push back against it, as Wikipedia is not a how-to guide We do not place Arabic text such that it is maximally helpful to those who are learning the language.

Please self-revert, as your changes are completely arbitrary and nonstandard, and like I said can easily concretely hurt more than they help. Remsense ‥ 论 06:57, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the ping. Hope you don't mind. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:02, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Guh, thank you. How did I even do that badly?) Remsense ‥ 论 07:05, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is it unnecessary? Besides, what's wrong with diacritics???🗽Freedoxm🗽(talk • contribs) 21:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't just ask the same question you did in the edit summary please. I gave you reasons directly above. If you cannot actually give a good reason for the addition, please self-revert. Remsense ‥ 论 22:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
that violates the entire purpose, but since you want my attention, i'll do it. 🗽Freedoxm🗽(talk • contribs) 22:02, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 31 December 2024

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State of Palestine → Palestine – Per WP:COMMONNAME, and for conciseness and consistency, the article should be moved. It was established that the State of Palestine is the primary topic for Palestine in the English language here, and the Palestine page is currently a redirect to the State of Palestine article. The State of Palestine is most commonly referred to as simply Palestine. In the cases of other county articles which also may refer to a region and in which the country is the primary topic, such as Syria and Syria (region) and Italy and Italy (geographical region), the country article titles reflect the common name rather than the full name. 2018rebel 01:04, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support move. This is a perennial move request, but I feel like it's finally been established that "Palestine" overwhelmingly refers to the country. O.N.R. (talk) 02:17, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commonname is a bit of a red herring here, as this page is named as it is due to disambiguation of the commonname of Palestine. There are also other countries not primary to their region such as Congo and Ireland. That said, this is a ptopic question, and that seems to have been the issue discussed at Talk:Palestine (disambiguation)#Requested move 29 June 2024. I'm surprised the disambiguation was moved independently of this page. CMD (talk) 09:14, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This has been a long running affair on WP (where the official position of Israel and its supporters/the US, has been that Palestine either isn't a state, doesn't exist and/or refers to all of Palestine including Israel and/or is a POV violation, etc etc and so attempts to move this page to Palestine have always failed as can be seen above, the most recent attempt being Talk:State of Palestine/Archive 19#Requested move 18 April 2024. Yes, the ideal set up would probably be Palestine (this page) and a disambiguation page for everything else and it would seem that when people say/write Palestine, they in all likelihood are referring to what is officially (by ISO/The UN) called the State of Palestine. Is there a tech whiz about that can see where users go after having entered Palestine in the search box? Selfstudier (talk) 09:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know the answer to your question, but I can see the pageviews including from redirects that end up here. No idea why the API breaks the Arabic redirects up into individual letters. The numbers won't match precisely with number above the lead because the API sets the end date back one day (to yesterday) whereas I count 30 days back from now. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:26, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom This is the primary usage of Palestine, as now clearly set down by the target of the redirect, so this is not comparable to cases like Congo and Ireland. There's no need to redirect to a longer form when the shorter name is the most common. Timrollpickering (talk) 09:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This reference to Congo and Ireland is a bit circular, but the odd thing here is the technical situation arising where that comparison could have been made. The disambiguation move has put these out of kilter, because as you say given Palestine as a redirect points here, it then follows from the naming guidelines that this page should have been moved to that redirect as it no longer needed disambiguation. CMD (talk) 10:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Right in theory but this is Palestine and invariably problematic. Selfstudier (talk) 10:22, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That shouldn't mean we complicate it further by an Ptopic move that doesn't actually move the Ptopic. Your question above for example would be easy to answer if the disambiguation page still disambiguated from the base name, as the data would be on WikiNav. At a look through I can't see an easy option to pull March data. CMD (talk) 14:42, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The root of the problem is that it shouldn't have been a redirect to here, rather should have been a disambiguation page, or perhaps to the generalised page for the region. ~~~ Mathmo Talk 10:09, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That's the way it was before until consensus decided otherwise. Selfstudier (talk) 10:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The recent redirct change should definitely be relooked at, then overturned. Mathmo Talk 14:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. As of now, this is emphatically not the primary meaning of Palestine. Palestine (region) or the dab page should be at that name. The redirect was and is a bad idea. As I said in that RM, ngrams show usage of "Palestine" has only modestly increased since 1948. In other words, we have good reason to think the word has the same meaning in 2024 as it did in 1924. And nobody meant "State of Palestine" until very recently. —Srnec (talk) 01:13, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Could that data also be interpreted to suggest that Mandatory Palestine, rather than the region, was the primary topic between 1920 and 1948. For at least the past five years, the articles for the State of Palestine, Mandatory Palestine, and Occupied Palestinian territories (incl. previous name) had more monthly views than Palestine (region), with State of Palestine having an absolute majority (62%) of the number of views during the period. Thus, by number of page views, Palestine (region) is the fourth most-visited page that potentially means Palestine. 2018rebel 02:09, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    In Wikipedia terms, your interpretation of ngrams data is WP:Original research. There are multiple ways to interpret that data. It's possible that while usage of Palestine has not increased significantly, the usage has shifted in terms of what it refers to. Bogazicili (talk) 19:44, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support per nom, clear PRIMARYTOPIC especially with uptick in global coverage.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:26, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I support the move to rename the article GucciNuzayer (talk) 19:41, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose the proposed future country/state of Palestine is completely different to the term "Palestine", which has had numerous other meanings over the centuries, and thus the waters shouldn't be muddied by mixing them up. Mathmo Talk 10:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Palestine already redirects to here? Thus the waters are already "muddied" in your terms. This RM is more like the last leg of a house cleaning operation. Btw, the state is not "proposed", it exists, that the US is alone in not recognizing that (on behalf of its ally, presumably) is neither surprising nor determinative. Selfstudier (talk) 10:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The root of the problem is that it shouldn't have been a redirect to here (that btw was a very very recent change, just a few months ago), rather should have been a disambiguation page, or perhaps to the generalised page for the region. Moving this page to there then just doubles down on the initial wrong decision by making another wrong decision rather than fixing the original root problem.
    And Palestine is very much so a proposed future state, as it does not currently exist, and it has never existed ever in the past. Currently Israel has granted a certain degree of limited autonomy to the Palestinian Authority in Areas A & B of Judea & Samaria (plus also in Gaza to an even greater degree). But Israel has never granted them statehood, so until a two state peace deal is reached (or the other option: they violently seize land from Israel and thus after defeating Israel they establish by conquest a new state. Which they're certainly also giving a try and doing, as was seen on Oct7th) then there is no such country established. Mathmo Talk 14:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    as it does not currently exist Tell that to the just over 3/4 of UN member states that recognize it as existing, I'm sure they they will take your personal opinion into account in their diplomatic dealings. Selfstudier (talk) 14:46, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Referring to whatever the majority of the UN thinks about Israel is utterly irrelevant, as that is no surprise, it's well known how the UN will easily pass whatever random new anti-Israel resolution they wish to pass. https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/01/04/absurd-un-condemned-israel-twice-often-all-other-countries-combined-2023/ But we shouldn't be denying what are obvious facts, because for a country to exist is needs to meet certain criteria. And you can't even give answers for the country of Palestine about basic facts such as: what day was it founded on? What are its defined borders? Mathmo Talk 15:26, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Read the article? Selfstudier (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I've read the article, and it doesn't answer any of my basic questions. Because:
    Founding Date: Are you going to claim the state of Palestine was created in 1988?? Even though in 1988 the Arab leadership didn't have control over a single inch of land of their own until Israel gave them some in the Oslo Accords, and thus finally for the first time ever they had some degree of autonomy of their own. (as Egypt and Jordan certainly didn't! The British offered it, but got it turned down by the Arabs. The Ottoman's also certainly didn't offer the Arabs their own country in the region of Palestine! Neither did anybody else. The Israelis were the first to make it happen with their plan the PLO)
    Country Borders: are you going to claim Area C is currently part of the state of Palestine? As it's blatantly obviously not, this is Israeli held and run land. Also why in 1964 did the lands of Gaza or Judea & Samaria (none of it, not lands the which are now are Area A, or Area B, or Area C. ) never ever get mentioned in the original Palestine National Charter founding document as part of the state of Palestine? Instead they got specifically excluded as not being part of the land they claimed. So what then were they claiming as part of their country, would Tel Aviv thus be part of "the state of Palestine"? That's clearly total nonsense. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-original-palestine-national-charter-1964
    Thus, no, none of this makes sense at all. Very clearly the country of Palestine does not currently exist, and never has. Mathmo Talk 15:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I can see I am wasting my time here, bfn. Selfstudier (talk) 15:51, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The UN and international community consider the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip to be occupied Palestinian territories. I strongly support the proposed renaming. Firecat93 (talk) 16:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The base term already redirects here and the UN recognises the name of the state as such, so Palestine is a seated state, which takes precedence over geographical regions and history. Readers looking for something else are already and will continue to be well looked after by the hatnotes. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The available evidence and the previous PTopic discussion suggests that we should take the final step here, no evidence (rather than opinion) has been presented that when most WP users search for Palestine they are looking for anything other than this article.Selfstudier (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Religion in the State of Palestine

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The newly-edited page shows that 99% of people in the State of Palestine are Muslims, and less than one percent are Christians. However, there is no credible source provided for this claim, and there exists Samaritans and Druze in the State of Palestine, both of whom are not listed on the page. Furthermore, in the demographics section, it is stated that 99% of Palestinians are Muslim, but no credible source is provided. In reality, Professor Bernard Sabella of Bethlehem University estimated in 2000 that 6.5% of all Palestinians are Christians.[1]

It is also claimed that Islam is the official religion of the State of Palestine, but the Constitution of the State of Palestine does not explicitly state this. Rather, the Palestinian Constitution states that Islam is the official Palestinian religion, and that Christianity, as well as other monotheistic religions, shall be equally respected.[2]

I would have corrected the above errors myself, but the website does not allow for me to do it. Therefore, I am asking for one of you to correct these errors. Thank you for your help. SirCapybara (talk) 04:18, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Since 2000, the number of Palestinian Christians in the OPT had decreased substantially. The absolute percentage had decreased since them due to emigration and a higher Muslim TFR. In 2017, it was estimated that there are about 50,000 Palestinian Christians residing in the State of Palestine, comprising less than 1% of the Palestinian population of 5.5 million. Samaritans and Druze in Palestine number less than 1,000 people. [3] The official religion is Islam. The constitution's minority protections do not change this. 2018rebel 06:55, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also the 6.5% number seems to include all Palestinians globally, including the diaspora, rather than legal residents of the State of Palestine. 2018rebel 06:58, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The number of Palestinian Christians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories has not decreased, so your claim is factually incorrect. You have provided no sources for your claims, and referencing the "Minority Rights Group" does not constitute a fact-based source on the percentage of Christians in the State of Palestine. If you go and read the article, they claim Palestinian Christians are less than 1% of the population without any evidence.
Furthermore, I implore you read my comment, instead of trying to infiltrate Wikipedia with propaganda. You did not dispute my comment on the constitution with any sources, so it is clear you are just writing based on your opinion. Also, to address your last point, the article makes it appear that 1% of Palestinians globally are Christian, which is why I brought up the need to address this error. Next time, read what people write. SirCapybara (talk) 07:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be best for the article to be reverted to the previous version, ensuring that incorrect pieces of information about the demographics of the State of Palestine are not in the article. Nobody should be able to edit the contents of the article based on an opinion that is not supported by any neutral source. SirCapybara (talk) 07:18, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What source do you have that supports the claim that the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics is not a credible or neutral source for population statistics about its own territory? [4] 2018rebel 07:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This article is not about Palestinians globally. For that, the correct article is Palestinians. According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, there were 46,850 Christians, 1,384 others, and 4,615,683 Muslims at the time of the 2017 Census. Thus, the Christian percentage is 0.98%. [5]https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/portals/_pcbs/PressRelease/Press_En_Preliminary_Results_Report-en.pdf#page=11.08 2018rebel 07:19, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Can you provide the source of this information, such as the report by the bureau? Otherwise, it is just another unsubstantiated claim that you are making. Also, I know that the article is not about Palestinians globally. However, when you made the edit, you wrote that 99% of Palestinians are Muslim. As you may know, Palestinians exist both inside and outside of the State of Palestine. SirCapybara (talk) 07:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind, I see that you sent it now. However, this is not the source you are using on the article. To pretend that Druze and Samaritans do not exist in the State of Palestine is to provide inaccurate information. Revert it back and stop writing based on your personal opinion. SirCapybara (talk) 07:25, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The source has been changed to use the PCSB instead. However, the previous MRG source cited the same data from the PCSB. 2018rebel 07:37, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I still appeal for the page to be reverted to the previous version. The demographics section now appears confusing for the reader and is not accurate. The Druze and Samaritans still exist, and the integrity of the page should be upheld. SirCapybara (talk) 07:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a reliable source supporting that a statistically significant Druze community exists in the State of Palestine? 2018rebel 08:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
They would be in the 'other' category of the 2017 census, alongside Samaritans. However, we do not know the exact figure, as this is not stated in the census. It is not for me to judge if they are "statistically significant" or not, considering the religious importance of the Palestine subject. Therefore, you should revert your changes and stop writing based on speculation. SirCapybara (talk) 08:34, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find any source supporting the existence of an organized Druze community in the State of Palestine. 2018rebel 08:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's because there is no authoritative statistical source on this matter. The only categories provided are Muslims, Christians, and then "others" in the census. It can be assumed that this refers to Druze and Samaritans, but we can't be sure. However, these groups do exist, and we shouldn't write as if they don't. SirCapybara (talk) 08:48, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If it would be better, statistical figures, such as percent, can be omitted due to conflicting figured and uncertainty. SirCapybara (talk) 08:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Because the numbers of Druze and Samaritians who are exclusively citizens of the State of Palestine is essentially 0%, that's why you can't find the percentage, because it's not statistically significant at all. They're just about almost nonexistent. Mathmo Talk 10:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Claims on Wikipedia must be verifiable (WP:V). "Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it." 2018rebel 08:56, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Like we have told you, there are conflicting figures pertaining to the numbers of Christians, Samaritans, and Druze. However, you are taking one source and deeming it authoritative in order to describe Samaritans as not significant enough to be included. SirCapybara (talk) 09:01, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The source is an official census conducted by the State of Palestine for the purpose of gathering information about its citizenry. However, I have updated the article to include other. But, there is no breakdown provided by the PCBS of the other category, and if data existed publically, breaking down the category further would result in the numbers potentially rounding to 0%. 2018rebel 09:11, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I would just recommend omitting percentages due to the existence of competing estimates. For example, you could say Islam is the majority and Christianity is a minority. Then, you can also include others or Samaritans if you wish. Sorry for the trouble. SirCapybara (talk) 17:17, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As a proportion of the total population, then yes the number of Christians have been decreasing. Or maybe you're thinking instead of Israel itself? As yes, in Israel the numbers of Christians have been growing. ~~~ Mathmo Talk 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
2020 religious demography resource here based on academic research. Worth noting that illegal Israeli settlers are part of the geographically delineated State of Palestine, so taken as a whole the Muslim population is 80% and Jews make up a sizeable proportion of the population. The same source gives a 98% figure for adherence to Islam within the solely Palestinian portion of the population. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:55, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This article and the demographics only consider Palestinian citizens residing in the territory claimed by the State of Palestine. That data would be better suited for the Occupied Palestinian territories article. The source is uncertain about the number of Christians, meaning that if the data were to be used, it would have to be grouped under other, to prevent original research. 2018rebel 08:08, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing sourced is original research. The source notes that there are competing estimates. More broadly, I suspect you will find that there are will be no perfectly authoritative statistical resource to be found on this topic. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:34, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
However, the closest thing we have is the PCSB. 2018rebel 08:37, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
For clarity area of Occupied Palestinian territories = State of Palestine claimed areas. Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
However, settlers are included in the population in that infobox, but are not included in the infobox of this article. 2018rebel 18:32, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
According to the OP "I did leave an edit request, which isn't being acted upon. Currently, the page is vandalized with propaganda. Thanks."
So where are we with this, are we done? Selfstudier (talk) 19:13, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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